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In the world of business, not all deals are what they see.
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Fortunes rise, empires crumble, all with the stroke of a pen.
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Mergers, acquisitions, hostile takeovers.
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Welcome to Mergers She Wrote, where we examine strategies and stories behind the biggest deals in business.
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Because in MA, the real risks are the ones you don't take.
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Welcome back to another episode of Mergers She Wrote.
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I'm Paloma Goggins, your host and the owner of Nocturnal Legal.
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Our guest today is going to share her journey on how she started a staffing agency in a side room in a rental home and ultimately sold it for$28 million.
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I'd like to welcome our guest today, Diane Prince.
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Hey Paloma.
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Thank you so much for being on today.
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Thanks for having me.
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So I'd like to just dive right in.
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How did you decide to start a staffing agency?
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Did you have a background in this arena or did you just decide on a whim to go with this type of industry?
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Well, kind of neither.
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So I had a little bit of background from temping.
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I my first temp assignment was when I was working in London.
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I was 19 years old.
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I got a student work permit and poured beer in a pub one night, and I was terrible at it.
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I had like beer all over me.
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And an English man said, How fast do you type?
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And then I started temping the next day.
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So I had it somewhat of experience.
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And then fast forward a few years, I was newly married, and my then husband and I had the idea of starting a business that we could build and exit.
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So then we started thinking about business models that where we could do that that were scalable.
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So we worked our way from there and arrived at staffing and we, yeah, had a temp agency for title insurance.
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Building your business with the end in mind, do you think that that helped guide you in a more unique manner than I feel like most people start their businesses and they don't even think about the end until they've grown to a certain size or maybe they've they've reached a certain age.
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And so knowing that when you started this at such a young age that your goal ultimately was to sell the business, how do you think that really helped guide you in building the vision and just scaling the business?
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Like what was the impact of that mindset?
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It impacted everything that we did because even from the decision on what kind of business we would start, because we were we spent several months brainstorming and thinking about different business ideas.
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And some were, you know, we're we would have been okay, but we were like, no, that's not quite, that doesn't fit our vision.
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And now I business coach, I work with some founders, and some people will come to me several years later who have who after starting their business, and they might have a profitable business, but they don't like it because it's not serving what they want out of life.
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So a lot of people start businesses with either something they're good at or some solution that they want to solve for the world, but it doesn't solve what they want to get out of it.
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Uh well, and I think that's such an important point that you brought up, which is like that disconnect between building a business that fits the lifestyle and the and the end goal that you want versus looking at to solve a problem that perhaps at the end of the day.
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I mean, I've listened to Diane talk about the her starting a secondary business after selling her first agency with which was a closing clothing line, and and you had said this just wasn't a good fit for you lifestyle-wise.
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And so, you know, for something that was started and you ultimately were like, I need to close up shop because this isn't working, you know, what was what was the moment that you were like, okay, this is the wrong path?
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Yeah, well, I and I had originally started my clothing business with an exit in mind again.
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However, I I totally leapt into it.
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I I did it too fast.
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I had never had inventory before.
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And there were so many parts of the business that were just overwhelming and that just didn't work.
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So it was really uh, and I I probably I held on to it probably too long, not probably I held on to it too long, but it was the moment where I just realized it wasn't, it it just wasn't.
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It was too competitive clothing was too competitive, inventory was too difficult in the business model that we had.
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So it was, it was a combination of things where the women who were I so I had a direct sales model like Mary Kay or Stella and Dott, and the women who were selling it loved it.
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So they were having a great time and they were not happy when I closed it, but I just realized for me, I mean, it was really financially devastating and emotionally, and I was single at that point, divorced and raising three kids.
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So yeah, I had that moment.
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So, like I'm hearing just generally do what you know best is kind of maybe a guiding force, but also you started with no experience in the staffing agency.
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So, in my brain, I'm trying to marry the ideas of like, don't strain something that maybe perhaps is so outside your wheelhouse that it becomes this foreign entity that you're just operating and doesn't jive with your life.
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But at the same time, you started the staffing agency that you ultimately sold with with no prior experience.
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And so, how do we marry those two?
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Like, if someone is is thinking about, okay, my business now, I'm I want to scale, I want to sell, what would be something they would say to themselves in this process?
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Because the two are almost like diametrically opposed when you're thinking about something.
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Yeah, I mean, you have to start somewhere, right?
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And so for me, I'm I'm I'm a starter.
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So when we started our staffing agency, and we ran into somebody at our at a high one of our high school reunions, it was our 10-year 10-year high school reunion, and we ran into somebody who was working at Manpower, a global staffing agency, and he was saying, I'm just gonna get a little bit more experience before I start.
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So for us, we just jumped in.
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So that's really kind of how I am.
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And I think that starting something without experience in that industry gives you an edge because it gives you a creative edge and you can approach problems in a different way.
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Back then, our guide was a dummy's book on how to start a temp agency.
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Now there's so much information, it's overwhelming.
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There's so many influencers and coaches and content about how to do something that people, what I find is get paralyzed by all of the information and how should I do something.
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So I think there is a benefit to that common sense and bringing in your own personality.
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And yeah, and I mean, I think I think with the clothing business, for me, what was the issue was it was planning.
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It was planning the inventory and doing it at a bad time in my life as well.
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I was I did never start a business while you're while going through a divorce.
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Sound advice.
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So there were a lot of other things too.
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Like my kids started coming to me.
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Like they like they used to be um, I used to sort of share custody, and so I'd work when they were at their dads, and et cetera, et cetera.
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So there were a lot of other things as well.
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Well, and I I think too, um this this idea of busy, busy life transitions, right?
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Um, and and knowing your own bandwidth and your own your own capability, I think it's so common in today's world for us to want to do everything.
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And it's been sold to us time and time again, right?
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Is that you you are capable of doing everything and anything that you want.
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And the reality is is we only have so much time in the day.
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And so I think too, if you're out there listening to this as a business owner that is either just starting their business or or perhaps, you know, in the early years of of operating, be honest with yourself, right?
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In your own capacity, because your ability to scale and grow something that is possibly sold for multiple millions depends on that.
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True, true.
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So you sold your first agency for a whopping 28 million, which uh congratulations, by the way.
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Um you've you've said in, and I I had the the good fortune of watching you present on the topic of how you scaled and sold your business at a co-working space that you belonged to a week before we had this episode.
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So I have a little bit of insider information.
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Um, but you had said, you know, with million-dollar weeks, which is amazing, uh, an incredible accomplishment.
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How does one go from starting a business and getting the first client to million dollar weeks?
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Because I feel like so many business owners know success, but this idea of success where you go from point A to point B, point A being starting from scratch, um, to point B being like just crazy wild success.
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Most people look at that and say, the point A to point B, I have no idea what that looks like in the middle.
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Um, you know, what can you share with us in terms of like how to get from point A to point B in any business really, but mostly from your perspective in your building your agency?
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Well, the first thing is is having the right offer, having the right product market fit or timing.
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It can be said in different ways, but you have to have you have to have good timing for your product.
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So for us, for a lot of reasons, we we so we did title insurance staffing, and for a lot of reasons that I won't go into, it was a really good timing in the market and where we started in Southern California.
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So that was one thing.
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We had good timing.
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We also did not stop.
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We were we were very disciplined and super driven and just kept on going.
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We also built a stellar team.
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Some people, well, uh a lot of most people kind of undervalue the importance of having the right people on your team.
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You cannot build a business like that with having underperformers.
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So it was it was the right team, relentlessness, just grit and hustle, all that, all that stuff you hear, and having having good timing.
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When it comes to grit and hustle, I feel like there's so much discussion out there about, you know, hustle is good, hustle is bad, hustle is is a nemesis for work-life balance, um, hustle being the the inevitable ingredient to success.
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You know, what is your perspective about hustle?
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I think I I'm hearing that you're saying it's a necessary, a necessary evil or ingredient to your success, but like to what degree do you think hustle was part of the success of your exit for this first agency?
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Do you do you feel like the hustle was consuming, or was it a good level of hustle?
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Everybody's different.
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Everybody has a different personality.
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So we thrived on it today.
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We're sold on the idea of having a business that works without you.
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That is, I I think that's that's a pipe dream.
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I there is there's got to be some kind of hustle.
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Now, and and and I'm saying this from somebody who I now I provide offshore teams, and I actually today in my business, I'm not such a hustler anymore because it's a different stage in my life.
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I don't know if I'll build an eight-figure business.
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I'm not sure.
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I have a very different vision of where I am now.
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And my team does do most of most everything that I that I don't want to do, or that's not my high value tasks, but I still am obsessed with my business.
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I still, however, I don't, I, I, I work nowhere near what I did then.
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That I was doing like 80-hour weeks, now it's more like 30.
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Well, and I was gonna say too, the I like that you had said that it's it's so individual specific because I do, to your point, I do think that there are entrepreneurs out there that love the hustle.
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They love they love to eat, sleep, and breathe work, but there is that dichotomy right now in in the marketplace and in our culture that this four-hour work week, you know, the the idea of taking a vacation and making money while you sleep is is pushed so much online that I think there's I think it's even harder for a lot of business owners to feel like, man, I'm still hustling too much, even when hustle is in fact quite normal for a lot of people working in their business and on their business.
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Granted, there's ways that they can optimize their business, but generally speaking, you're not going to get away.
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Like there's like you said, it's a pipe dream.
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There's there's no way.
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I just I feel like unfortunately, a lot of the messaging today is is it makes people feel like they haven't quote unquote made it when in reality you you really can't have a business where you're just stepping back and it runs without you wholeheartedly.
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And and people people will ask me, they'll they'll say, Well, can I hire you to help me build I want to exit for$28 million, but you know, but I don't want to have employees, or I don't want to do this, or I don't want to do that.
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Well, I don't know how to do that because there is it, it's it's not easy.
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It's difficult work.
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And I'm not here to say it was easy.
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It was very complicated and hard.
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Now, my business today is a lot easier.
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I've built it in a different way, and I've been obsessed with figuring out how to have an offshore team do all of the heavy lifting.
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So that's my new obsession and way to way of building.
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Do you think that someone could today with the right the right components, right?
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Because you've talked about having the right team, the right um determination, the right solution for the current current economy, the current, current needs.
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Um, do you think it's possible to sell at such a high amount for a business that is less complicated?
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Or do you think you still for something that's in the the millions of dollars range?
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I mean, I I think in my opinion, from what I'm seeing, in in my world, working a lot with business owners that are selling their businesses, I would say on average, the deal that is 10 million and above has employees, usually many of them.
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Yeah.
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Um, it's usually a fairly complicated business.
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Um, it can still be run lean um and and not be overburdened by processes and and infrastructure.
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But for the most part, you're not seeing, or at least I'm not seeing in the marketplace these uh, you know, two two people businesses that are selling for you know$60 million a pop.
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No, I haven't seen that.
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And and um yeah, and I mean you you know this from from your experience and your work.
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Every business, so I've sold a few other businesses.
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That when I sold to a public company, I've sold a business to a family office, to a private business, to a PE firm.
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And every everyone had a different motivation or reason for buying that specific business.
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So I learned you don't necessarily know who your buyer's going to be or why they're going to want it.
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And there's a few elements that are always important, like team building, having your having your financials in place, systems and things like that.
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But yeah, I think it it is a pipe dream to think that.
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You know, but but who knows?
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It could, you know.
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I mean, look at, you know, some businesses sell on an idea these days.
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So it just it just depends.
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Well, and I was gonna say too, maybe um the big bad AI changes some of that too as we as we shift and we morph in technology.
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Granted, there's always gonna be industries like staffing agencies where you know the human component is is hypercritical because we're I don't think we're anywhere close to having AI truly, even though that is the scare tactic on social media right now, replace human, uh, human workers in so many capacities.
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I mean, certainly there are some jobs that are um, I think, you know, far easier to replace than others, but when it comes to uh the technical and thinking work of a of a human, it's it's so hard to replace.
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So do you know the builder AI story?
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Have you heard that story?
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So builder.ai was a huge was a huge startup, and they got investors like they had soft bank, they raised, they raised$350 million.
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And their their idea was or what they did was they built apps with AI.
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So you basically shared your idea and they built the app.
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Well, it turns out they had hundreds of humans in India building the apps and they went they went bust.
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Oh man.
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Well, I mean that that makes sense because uh from what I've read online, a lot of the like AI coding tools, people are just they're like, it's not quite there to be able to build an app completely without some sort of human touch to it.
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So that's funny.
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Oh man, but it does raise your multiple, right?
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If you have AI.ai in your yes, yes.
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Well, I was gonna say too, that that seems to be a recurring theme.
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I have to wonder how many AI businesses actually have more human touch points than you actually realize on the back end when the the query is more complicated or a search has to be done that AI really can't do on its own.
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Um, I'd be really curious.
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Obviously, we're never gonna know the answer to that question.
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Well, they say 95% of businesses exaggerate their use of AI.
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Interesting.
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Exaggerate in that they say they use it more or less.
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They use it more.
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More.
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That's fascinating.
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So we've talked separately about how you aren't a perfectionist and have never really experienced imposter syndrome, which I think is amazing.
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Um, I think for many people, they don't know what it's like to run a business without feeling either of those emotions or mindsets.
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What's your secret?
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Well, I a part of it is just probably how I am, just uh nature.
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And the more, the longer that I've been in business though, the more I realize that nobody really knows what they're doing.
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I mean, and so, or how many people don't know what they're doing.
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And I think that really that, you know, uh what I realized that kind of early on in business, like, oh, this person who is in this prestigious title or whatever, like, you know, and then becoming a business coach, all these men who have imposter syndrome, all these men, you know, sometimes we think, well, as a woman, we have we have imposter syndrome or this, but people just present it differently.
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So I think just realizing, and we're all impostors.
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I mean, no one was born with any of these, you know, things that we're doing and random things in business, and we're we're just making it up as we go.
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So I guess I've always kind of thought in that in that area, like, why not me?
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If that person if that person can do it.
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And the perfectionism thing too, I just I don't know.
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I just I don't have it in me, which is some ways a weakness because I don't have that attention to detail.
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And then I need to know that I need to build a team around me that that does.
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And then I need perfectionists around me.
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Well, I I can't tell you how much having you say, why not me?
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I love that.
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I love that times a thousand because how many of us operate from the why me instead of why not me?
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And that mindset shift.
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For most people in business.
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And to your point, no one is born operating a business, right?
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And so we are all out there figuring it out at the same time, having our own trials and tribulations, you know, having hurdles to get over.
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And I I love this idea because how many of us as business owners need to be told, why not you?
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And it has had it has bitten me before.
00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:29.200
I've gotten burned by that with my clothing business.
00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:32.400
So my inspiration was Stella and Dot.
00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:38.000
And they had just sold it was like 10% of their business to Sequoia for$38 million.
00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:40.720
And then I had that, well, why not me?
00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:42.480
I'm like that too.
00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:47.839
Now I have a lot of reasons, why not me for that, for that particular endeavor.
00:20:48.160 --> 00:21:00.000
But to your point, I think one of the things that I appreciate in hearing your story and hearing about the way that you've started your businesses is to just try it.
00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:01.759
I love that idea.
00:21:01.839 --> 00:21:12.880
Is like there's so many people who are stymied by their fear of failure or their fear of maybe not achieving what they ultimately set out to achieve.
00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:15.519
And the only way you're going to find that out is just by doing it.
00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:15.839
Yeah.
00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:26.480
And to your point, starting your first agency as this, you know, kind of like almost a side hustle in a way, in this, you know, tiny room and a rented home.
00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:30.960
And, you know, you've shown me the picture of you, you know, next to this fax machine.
00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:39.839
And like, I just, I love the the you know, grassroots startup feel of like, I'm just gonna do it because no one is gonna tell me that I can't.
00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:50.640
And I I think that there's so many entrepreneurs and current business owners that need to be told and and and really take that and absorb it into their their own model.
00:21:50.960 --> 00:21:55.119
Because at the end of the day, if you're not gonna do it, somebody else will.
00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:57.519
We have limited days on this planet.
00:21:57.680 --> 00:21:59.680
That's that's why I stopped drinking too.
00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:07.519
I you're looking at like, you know, I did a life expectancy calculator and I'm looking at like, okay, I am not, you know, maybe I have 30 years, I don't know.
00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:09.039
And I don't want to waste it.
00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:12.640
And and none of this is that big of a deal.
00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:15.200
Where does one take a life expectancy calculator?
00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:16.000
Oh, Google.
00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:20.079
I'm like, I don't, I don't want to know.
00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:22.480
I don't want to know, but also like that's terrifying.
00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:25.680
So it asks you about like your habits and that's how it calculates.
00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:26.799
I find it very empowering.
00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:31.519
Yeah, it asks about your habits and your your health and your you know, smoking and drinking history and things like that.
00:22:31.680 --> 00:22:35.519
Are you married, which I'm not, but you know, I did live by the ocean, which elevated it.
00:22:35.599 --> 00:22:37.680
I have good friends with which elevates it.
00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:38.960
Um, but yeah.
00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:46.720
I wonder in its its algorithm, like being married is like it increases or decreases your like that's a that's it's such a subjective.
00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:52.559
I was just thinking about all the things it can ask you, and it's like, well, your marriage could be amazing or it could be terrible.
00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:56.799
That could be like being in a being married, like is not subjectively just the question.
00:22:56.880 --> 00:23:01.680
I probably for men it for men it increases and women it decreases, I'm thinking.
00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:02.640
I can't see that.
00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:04.960
We're being cynical.
00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:06.240
Um all right.
00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:09.359
So you believe in the power of systems and hiring an A-Team.
00:23:09.519 --> 00:23:12.319
And I know your your current agency is called A Team.
00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:12.799
Yes.
00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:23.119
And um what advice would you give a business owner listening to this episode about how those two pillars of your business shaped your ability to sell your agency?
00:23:23.359 --> 00:23:27.599
Yeah, so hustle will take you to a certain point, and then you need to put in systems.
00:23:27.759 --> 00:23:33.440
So we were totally flying by the seat of their pants and my first business, and which I do a lot of times in my businesses.
00:23:33.519 --> 00:23:37.920
Like for me, it's you know, people be like, I got my LLC, and I know you're a lawyer, so no offense.
00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:40.319
But I'm like, I'm just like get your first sale.
00:23:40.480 --> 00:23:41.200
Like, who cares?
00:23:41.359 --> 00:23:43.279
You know, taxes aren't due until next year.
00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:45.359
Like, get like get just get some money in.
00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:47.039
So that's kind of how I look at things.
00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:53.200
But then then you do need to put in the systems and the structure to to really build something that's scalable.
00:23:53.359 --> 00:23:54.400
So that is essential.
00:23:54.480 --> 00:24:04.000
That was a huge, huge um cliche, but game changer for us when once we started really putting in systems and and hiring the right people.
00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:15.279
So it's it and it's also about understanding your your weaknesses and bringing in people who have strengths that can um that can counterbalance your weaknesses.
00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:17.920
And and when when you're going to sell, that's important too.
00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:20.000
Systems are important, structures important.
00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:35.039
A reason why I've been able to sell businesses is because of the team that I put together and intentionally building uh teams that wanted to stay on uh with the business when I didn't want to.
00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:44.480
I was gonna say one of the things that I I feel like is a big question for anybody in the process of scaling is is how do you hire thoughtfully?
00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:59.359
And as someone who has built businesses around the idea of of staffing and staffing appropriately, I mean, we're not just talking about staffing for your clients, we're also talking about staffing for yourself so that you can continue to run and scale.
00:24:59.599 --> 00:25:09.839
I mean, what what are some things that you learned in the process of being able to hire and place people into title companies and also for your own for your own business?
00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:12.160
So one of my core values is vision.
00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:26.079
And so, similarly to how I build businesses based on my personal vision and what I want to get out of them, I've learned that hiring key employees based on their personal visions as well.
00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:38.720
Especially if you have an early stage business and you're bringing on people who are hireable, you need to make sure that their personal vision can be satisfied with the role that they play in your business.
00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:47.279
For example, one of our first executives that we brought on, his goal was to become CEO of a publicly traded staffing agency.
00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:49.759
We wanted to leave, like we wanted to get out.
00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:57.359
So we had no problem putting him, pushing him forefront so that he could then, and he ended up getting what he wanted.
00:25:57.519 --> 00:26:00.000
He ended up being CEO when we sold the business.
00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:01.680
He was fired a few months later by that.
00:26:01.839 --> 00:26:03.119
That wasn't my problem.
00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:08.000
No, it wasn't part of your game plan or his, obviously.
00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:10.559
With an acquisition, everything's kind of off the table.
00:26:10.720 --> 00:26:13.359
Um but I like I like that idea.
00:26:13.599 --> 00:26:19.039
When when you're asking about people's vision, is it part of the initial interview questions?
00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:19.599
100%.
00:26:19.920 --> 00:26:21.599
I ask what are your career goals?
00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:24.000
That's a first, that's a first interview question.
00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:25.440
I always do a pre-interview.
00:26:25.519 --> 00:26:31.839
So I have a very quick, like 10-minute pre-interview, so that then I have a cooling off period.
00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:37.039
So if it's I'm excited about their personality or whatever, I take time though to really think about it.
00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:41.519
But I always ask, that's my first question that I always ask is what what are your career goals?
00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:47.119
So I want to know that what they're going to do in my business, and and this is this is any role.
00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:50.799
And you know, I have small businesses, so this is any role in the business.
00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:58.160
I want to know that they're going to, they're going to be able to hit their personal goals at this time in their life.
00:26:58.319 --> 00:27:03.599
And if they're things that are beyond the business, then if they're a fit now, then how do we help them through this?
00:27:03.839 --> 00:27:10.240
So it's not some like awkward conversation or, you know, you know what they want and you help them to get it.
00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:13.759
And then they help in in return help you in your business.
00:27:14.079 --> 00:27:14.640
I like that.
00:27:14.799 --> 00:27:22.880
So what happens when you're interviewing someone and you ask them their career goals and they don't have any?
00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:26.319
Is that not is that a B player or a C player?
00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:31.119
Or do you are you like, I'll help you guide, I'll help guide you to help you.
00:27:31.279 --> 00:27:42.880
Because I can imagine for some individuals who are potentially on the younger side, they haven't thought too hard about what their long-term goals are, other than to get paid and have a means to an end.
00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:43.359
Yeah.
00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:47.920
Um, I don't know if I've ever had anyone not be able to answer the question.
00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:56.880
Because even if it's even if it's short term or even if they're they're just starting out, and even if their goal is making money.
00:27:57.039 --> 00:28:03.200
I mean, when I'm looking for salespeople, that's it, and I also have people rank what's most important to them.
00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:09.039
And if they're in a commission-based role and they don't say money is the first thing, I dig in and I want to know why.
00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:12.799
And the only acceptable answer is because I know I'm gonna hit my commission.
00:28:13.119 --> 00:28:16.400
So it just depends on what role they're going for.
00:28:16.640 --> 00:28:19.839
And it could be, it could be shorter-term goals.
00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:22.160
It doesn't always have to be long-term vision.
00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:28.160
But if they are a key player, if they are going to be have an equity stake, I want to know everything.
00:28:28.240 --> 00:28:31.200
I meet their families, I want to know that they're because it's gonna be hard.
00:28:31.359 --> 00:28:36.319
I want to know that their families are are are bought in the whole deal because people go into co-founder.
00:28:36.559 --> 00:28:39.359
I know you know this, people go into co-founder relationships.
00:28:39.680 --> 00:28:43.599
So um just without without due diligence.
00:28:43.759 --> 00:28:44.000
Yes.
00:28:44.160 --> 00:28:48.480
And I I coach a lot of people through separating from their co-founders.
00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:52.640
It is it is an unfortunate theme.
00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:59.200
And I actually I see it more frequently with people that are closer before they partner.
00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:07.599
So you know, long time friends, family, um people that, you know, they're like, I've known this person since kindergarten, they're my best friend.
00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:19.519
Like those are the worst because people change, and unfortunately, no matter how much you warn individuals, like, okay, we're gonna put together an operating agreement because it's your prenup, right?
00:29:19.599 --> 00:29:28.160
You gotta have something so that in case things go south, you can separate and break up amicably, and that operating agreement can be the playbook for that.
00:29:28.559 --> 00:29:54.079
Um, but there's so many times I have conversations where we're adding people as as members or people are joining in as partners, and then as soon as money starts rolling in, the dynamics change because friendships never had money as a dynamic, it's not a husband and wife do or it's you know, and and even in in parent-child relationships or even sibling relationships, the money dynamic has never been, you know, how do I get my fair share from the work I've put in?
00:29:54.160 --> 00:29:57.279
It's it's either a support role or just equal sharing.
00:29:57.440 --> 00:30:06.079
And so it's it's interesting how I think ironically, money typically is the the driving force for for a lot of people breaking up in their businesses.
00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:08.319
But to your point, it it happens so much.
00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:09.759
Yes, unfortunately.
00:30:10.960 --> 00:30:14.640
When it came time to sell your business, how did you start preparing?
00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:18.640
We hired for my first business, we hired an investment banker.
00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:25.039
So, and from the from the beginning, because we knew that was our goal, and in year two, we started meeting with him.
00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:27.039
So, way before we were ready.
00:30:27.200 --> 00:30:30.319
So, we'd meet with him every quarter and say, Okay, this is where we're at.
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:31.680
What should we do next?
00:30:31.839 --> 00:30:33.519
So we took it as his advice.
00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:35.920
He became he became an advisor.
00:30:36.079 --> 00:30:40.559
And so once it was time that that time we went through their whole process.
00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:42.160
I mean, they did all the work, really.
00:30:42.319 --> 00:30:50.400
They were they, you know, wrote wrote a book, you know, they put prepare all the the book and then they put it out to their whole, you know, they find the buyers and all that.
00:30:50.720 --> 00:30:51.359
Nice.
00:30:51.920 --> 00:31:05.039
Um, and was that something that like once you went through it the first time and you learned the process, did you feel emboldened to be able to do it a second time without that sort of guidance because you had received it already?
00:31:05.119 --> 00:31:08.000
Or was it something that you were like, okay, I want that person back on my team?
00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:12.400
We used them for another deal, and then it it also depended on the size of the deal.
00:31:12.559 --> 00:31:19.440
So I sold one offshoot, uh a section of one of my businesses to a private equity firm for a million dollars.
00:31:19.599 --> 00:31:21.359
That one I I I used my lawyer.
00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:22.960
Like I didn't use an investment banker for that.
00:31:23.039 --> 00:31:27.680
I mean investment banker, you know, there it's it's expensive, you know, those are six-figure checks that you write to them.
00:31:27.920 --> 00:31:28.079
Yes.
00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:30.720
So it just depended really on the on the size and the type of the deal.
00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:32.400
Okay, that makes sense.
00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:38.880
Um, is there something that you wished you would have done differently in the process of selling your business looking back on it now?
00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:45.440
You know, I I um I guess in some ways for a long time I thought, well, maybe we sold it too early.
00:31:45.759 --> 00:31:48.640
Because we could have could have done more.
00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:52.880
And another thing I wish I would have done is document it.
00:31:53.039 --> 00:32:00.240
I wish I would have documented the process more so that yeah, so that I was telling the story as we did it, which I'm trying to do now.
00:32:00.559 --> 00:32:07.200
Well, and I was gonna say documentation is is it's so hard to go, it's it's in the moment, you're like, I'll remember this.
00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:12.559
And then and then once it's done, it just blurs all together and like the the minutiae of it.
00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:23.359
I always I and I think of it this way we like to travel, and I always want to do a travel journal because I'll never remember the days that we've traveled in such detail if I don't write it down.
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:31.359
And of course, when you're packing, you're like, oh, whoops, am I really gonna bring a you know a journal to lug around or whatever?
00:32:31.519 --> 00:32:36.559
And um, I'll always I always tell myself, I always promise myself I'm gonna get home and I'm gonna journal.
00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:37.920
And of course I never do.
00:32:38.079 --> 00:32:38.319
Yes.
00:32:38.480 --> 00:32:46.559
And so I've got pictures to try and piece together my days, but to your point, it's so hard to to go back and rewrite the story from your past.
00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:49.440
And now we have social media, so it it is easier.
00:32:49.519 --> 00:32:53.759
But the the picture you saw of me by the fax machine is pretty much the documentation.
00:32:54.079 --> 00:32:54.880
And I love that.
00:32:55.039 --> 00:32:57.039
I hope you have that framed and like hanging.
00:32:57.519 --> 00:32:57.759
I don't.
00:32:57.920 --> 00:32:59.680
Yes, you absolutely should.
00:32:59.920 --> 00:33:01.440
Your origin story.
00:33:01.759 --> 00:33:06.319
Um, you created a number of agencies after you sold your first one for 28 million.
00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:09.119
So many people sign non-competes.
00:33:09.599 --> 00:33:13.680
When they sell their business, they can't go on and continue to do what they used to do.
00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:16.799
Um, how were you able to continue to create agencies?
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:17.839
Was it a carve out?
00:33:18.160 --> 00:33:20.480
Was there a time frame limitation?
00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:22.160
Did you sit on the sidelines?
00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:27.680
I know you had the clothing business for a while, so there was a time period where you weren't potentially building agencies, but what was that like for you?
00:33:27.920 --> 00:33:29.920
So, so we did respect our non-competes.
00:33:30.079 --> 00:33:35.039
And after, so after the first business, we started a couple of staffing adjacent businesses.
00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:41.119
So we had we had a job board that was actually part of an offshoot of the first business, so that was a carve out, so we kept that.
00:33:41.279 --> 00:33:47.359
And then we had a couple of um vendor management businesses in staffing, so that was not included in the non-compete.
00:33:47.839 --> 00:33:52.000
We started our second business really when the non-competes expired.
00:33:52.400 --> 00:33:54.079
And we still got sued.
00:33:54.240 --> 00:34:00.079
We actually, we actually it was Kate Force who sued us, and we actually settled with Lloyd's of London.
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:04.000
Lloyds of London then wasn't going to pay out our so anyway.
00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:05.599
We ended up settling with Lloyds of London.
00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:07.599
We was favorable to to us.
00:34:07.839 --> 00:34:13.039
And then when I sold my last staffing agency, I that's when I started my clothing business.
00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:15.039
So I've always had non-competes and sat out.
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:16.800
And then we'll retired for a while.
00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:22.400
I mean, I had three kids, and yeah, my baby one, right, my youngest one when we sold the first business.
00:34:22.480 --> 00:34:24.159
So yeah, it just took time off as well.
00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:24.559
Yeah.
00:34:24.639 --> 00:34:37.280
Well, and I was gonna say, I feel like a lot of people, I a question I always have in my mind when I hear people who have exited, especially for multiple millions, like I always wonder why the drive to go back and build more business.
00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:44.480
Because inevitably, a majority of those people, it's just in their blood to go back and create more businesses or do more work.
00:34:44.639 --> 00:34:46.880
And I think it's a really it's a driving force for them.
00:34:46.960 --> 00:34:48.559
Do you feel like it's just in your DNA?
00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:51.599
You know, I'm gonna say I'm there was greed.
00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:52.639
There was greed.
00:34:52.800 --> 00:35:00.320
And the people that we were associated with after we sold our first business were like, well, that's not that's not enough money.
00:35:00.480 --> 00:35:02.079
You don't have, you know, F you money.
00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:04.880
And I mean, it was really, and we got really wrapped up in that.
00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:05.440
That's crazy.
00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:08.000
And we were living in Malibu, we moved here.
00:35:08.079 --> 00:35:13.199
We then we were in Paradise Valley, and you know, so we thought we'd move to Arizona and have this quiet, you know, cheap life.
00:35:13.360 --> 00:35:20.000
And we were like, all of a sudden our kids up were in private school here, and we're so it was, I would say we were very young too.
00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:28.159
We're at 33 and had a lot of money and got really wrapped up in in keeping up with the Joneses, that's crazy.
00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:30.960
I like I like the FU money term.
00:35:31.039 --> 00:35:38.880
We I once took an Uber from the airport home in Phoenix, and my driver was a private uh pilot.
00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:44.239
And we were chit-chatting, and he was saying how the Uber is just a side hustle.
00:35:44.559 --> 00:35:48.400
He flies for a private family and only one family all the time.
00:35:48.880 --> 00:35:52.079
And he said they have they have hamburger money.
00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:53.599
And I was like, what's that?
00:35:53.679 --> 00:35:54.320
I've never heard that.
00:35:54.480 --> 00:35:56.320
I'd heard FU money before.
00:35:56.639 --> 00:36:03.280
And uh he was like, Oh yeah, they'll just fly to California for this burger that they like for dinner and come back.
00:36:03.360 --> 00:36:04.960
And I call it a hamburger money.
00:36:05.199 --> 00:36:05.679
I've never heard that.
00:36:05.920 --> 00:36:12.880
And so, like, as an inside joke now, my husband and I, whenever we're like, you know, see like a Rolls-Royce drive down the road, I'm like, burger money.
00:36:13.119 --> 00:36:14.000
That is great.
00:36:14.159 --> 00:36:14.800
That is great.
00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:15.280
Yes.
00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:17.599
Rolls off the tongue a little bit easier.
00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:22.559
Um, for a business owner aspiring to grow their business into the millions, uh-huh.
00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:28.719
What advice would you give them in terms of the necessary components or determination in order to accomplish this goal?
00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:34.239
Is there something that besides hustle grit, the A-team, things like that?
00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:38.960
What could you tell someone who's aspiring to really grow and exit their business?
00:36:39.280 --> 00:36:40.320
Go step by step.
00:36:40.480 --> 00:36:42.159
Always look at what is the next step.
00:36:42.239 --> 00:37:00.400
So you have your vision, you know, if you're gonna want to go into the millions or whatever it is, and then instead of getting overwhelmed, because there are so many steps, just look at what is the next step and identify what are the questions that I need to ask next, what are the questions that need to be answered next.
00:37:00.559 --> 00:37:04.639
You don't have to know everything, it's just take it brick by brick.
00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:13.840
Well, and I think that is such stage advice because the mountain is steep and it's really big and you can only get to the top one step at a time.
00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:14.880
So true.
00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:23.840
So I we you we use that all the time when we're hiking and we're we're gassed, you know, and it's like, okay, you you can just the next 20 steps get you a little bit further.
00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:24.559
So true.
00:37:24.719 --> 00:37:31.440
I did a hike with my I did um the the Tour du Mont Blanc, which is 110 miles with my my daughter in Europe two years ago.
00:37:31.599 --> 00:37:35.519
And you're right, because I would look up and I'd say, I'd say, are we gonna go up there?
00:37:35.599 --> 00:37:36.400
And of course we were.
00:37:36.559 --> 00:37:38.000
That was the only trail.
00:37:38.239 --> 00:37:39.760
It seems so far.
00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:44.480
And then I started saying, okay, just one step, one step, just the next step.
00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:51.679
Well, and I was gonna say too, once you get to certain levels, like I'm I'm hearing in your story, right?
00:37:51.840 --> 00:38:01.199
You started from nothing, you wanted to get that first sale in the door, like systems, great, you need them, but just get it going first, right?
00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:08.159
And then once you started things getting rolling, you're implementing the systems, the processes, like the team.
00:38:08.800 --> 00:38:17.760
At some point you you hit a threshold and convert over into arguably a a very uh complicated and successful business.
00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:26.320
And I think for some people, getting to that stage, um it it's it's almost like they continually hit their own glass ceiling.
00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:29.280
I can't tell, I talk to people in the trades.
00:38:29.599 --> 00:38:34.000
And people in the trades, especially in Arizona, they are drowning in work.
00:38:34.400 --> 00:38:36.400
And it's the best type of success, right?
00:38:36.800 --> 00:38:45.039
But they're so drowning in it that they can't ever find the time to start doing the work that's necessary to get to the next stage.
00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:50.719
And so a lot of times we have those conversations when they come to me and they're like, hey, I would like to exit in the next five years.
00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:55.760
And I'm like, great, we gotta really carve out some time so that you can get these things in place.
00:38:56.239 --> 00:39:04.800
For someone who is struggling with time, whether key man or key woman syndrome, like, and I'm sure every business owner kind of hits that plateau at some point.
00:39:05.199 --> 00:39:07.840
What is like the very next thing that you would recommend?
00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:13.599
Like when you get to that point where you're like, I have no time, is it the team or is it the systems?
00:39:13.920 --> 00:39:17.440
It's well, first it's it's it's delicate, well, it's delegation.
00:39:17.599 --> 00:39:20.719
So, and you can delegate putting the systems together.
00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:26.079
So what I do, and I have I have a delegation identifier free tool.
00:39:26.320 --> 00:39:28.480
Look at, I would start with that.
00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:29.760
What is one thing?
00:39:29.840 --> 00:39:35.039
You know, if you list out everything that you do in a week, write it down.
00:39:35.199 --> 00:39:41.599
Write down everything that you do in a week, and then you can put it in a you put it in a um like a grid, okay?
00:39:41.840 --> 00:39:48.960
And then you identify the things that you're really good at and you love to do, things that you're good at don't like to do.
00:39:49.199 --> 00:39:59.280
And then, you know, the bad things, you know, is that and so the things that you're you're not good at don't like to do, or even not good at and like to do, those are things to delegate.
00:39:59.360 --> 00:39:59.760
So start.
00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:01.920
You can start small.
00:40:02.639 --> 00:40:08.320
I work with one of my clients is a lawyer, and he started out and he was so he was terrified to delegate.
00:40:08.480 --> 00:40:12.719
He even had a paralegal who was phenomenal and he was afraid to delegate to him.
00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:15.199
And one of the reasons was he'd say, Well, he's only 25.
00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:17.440
And then he also felt guilty for delegating.
00:40:17.599 --> 00:40:21.119
Once he understood, and I kept asking, Well, I was 27 when I started my first business.
00:40:21.280 --> 00:40:22.400
Like, just you know, it's okay.
00:40:22.559 --> 00:40:29.039
So once he started delegating, he really started getting used to it and embracing it and loving it.
00:40:29.119 --> 00:40:30.880
But just start with even one thing.
00:40:31.039 --> 00:40:33.119
What is one thing that you can take off your plate?
00:40:33.360 --> 00:40:34.320
I like that.
00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:42.079
Well, I feel like you kind of married the two answers, which is like it should, you should, you should hire someone that you could delegate to so you could put the system in place.
00:40:42.159 --> 00:40:43.679
Is that is that the accurate statement?
00:40:43.920 --> 00:40:44.480
I would say so.
00:40:44.800 --> 00:40:55.679
And also what if you're just starting out and you're at the point, because it's realistically a lot of people do start out and do everything that's a normal, that's kind of a normal beginning of a business.
00:40:55.920 --> 00:40:59.360
Treat everything like you're going to systematize it.
00:40:59.599 --> 00:41:00.400
Treat everything.
00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:05.679
So if I'm starting a business just by myself, I'll treat everything like okay, what is the process?
00:41:05.840 --> 00:41:13.119
And envision myself training somebody to do the work just right from the beginning so that things are as documented as possible.
00:41:13.519 --> 00:41:25.920
Well, I was gonna say that resonates so much on my end too, because I always try and advise my clients, let's build the business with the end in mind, which it's so hard to do when you're just getting going or you're in your infancy.
00:41:26.239 --> 00:41:38.000
But it's so much easier to do that than it is to go back and implement the systems, put together the SOPs, fix the lack of contracts that you have in your business, and all of that.
00:41:38.239 --> 00:41:39.519
So 100%.
00:41:40.400 --> 00:41:42.960
Well, this has been a fantastic conversation.
00:41:43.360 --> 00:41:46.480
Um, I would love to continue this conversation another time.
00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:48.320
I think there's so much that you have to share.
00:41:48.639 --> 00:41:52.719
Is there anything else that you would like to talk about before we close our episode today?
00:41:52.960 --> 00:41:53.920
I just say go for it.
00:41:54.079 --> 00:42:00.800
If you have, if if you want to start a business or anything in life, just it's not that serious.
00:42:00.960 --> 00:42:02.159
It's just just go for it.
00:42:02.239 --> 00:42:04.960
I just I don't want to waste any precious day in life.
00:42:05.039 --> 00:42:09.360
And and if that's something that you're that you're driven to do, I'd say do it.
00:42:09.599 --> 00:42:10.079
I love that.
00:42:10.159 --> 00:42:14.800
And if you're lacking the motivation, go on Google and check out your life expectancy.
00:42:16.559 --> 00:42:17.280
Exactly.
00:42:17.519 --> 00:42:18.719
Well, thank you so much, Diane.
00:42:19.039 --> 00:42:19.840
It's Paloma.
00:42:20.159 --> 00:42:20.960
Thanks for tuning in.
00:42:21.039 --> 00:42:25.199
If you enjoyed this episode, please like, share, and tune in next week.
00:42:26.079 --> 00:42:31.679
In the world of business, not all deals are what they seem.
00:42:32.079 --> 00:42:37.679
Fortunes rise, empires crumble, all with the stroke of a pen.
00:42:38.480 --> 00:42:42.079
Mergers, acquisitions, hostile takeovers.
00:42:42.400 --> 00:42:51.679
Welcome to Mergers She Wrote, where we examine strategies and stories behind the biggest deals in business.
00:42:52.079 --> 00:42:57.360
Because in MA, the real risks are the ones you don't take.
